With the game’s greatest closer, Mariano Rivera, about to embark on his swan song, Yankees Hall of Fame reliever Rich “Goose” Gossage shares his thoughts in a Q&A with Post columnist Steve Serby.
Q: Who has meant more to the Yankees success, Mariano Rivera or Derek Jeter?
A: I won’t even say Jeter. I don’t want to insult Jeter. I would take Mariano over anybody. … When you don’t have a closer, look at the difference. Look at the psychological difference — “How are we gonna lose this one?” And to have a guy like him. … It was a sinking feeling when Rollie Fingers came into a game, when Bruce Sutter, when Lee Smith — [Shoot!]. This game’s over. That’s how I felt about Mariano. I’m sure that’s how the opposition felt.
Q: What has made Mariano, Mariano?
A: I think it’s the same thing that has made everybody that’s in the Hall of Fame great, is one pitch. Rollie Fingers had a great slider … Sparky Lyle had a great slider. My bread-and-butter was my fastball. If I could come in and pitch one inning, pitch the ninth inning, and be strong every night and fresh every night, you come in blowing one inning — Oh my God! I set up Dennis Eckersley in Oakland. We used to walk out to the bullpen and the coaches would razz Dennis and say: “You’re not really a pitcher. There’s a real relief pitcher right there!”
Q: Where would you rank Mariano among relief pitchers?
A: He’s right there at the top. … He’s in the top three or four or five guys that ever relieved.
Q: Ever see a cutter like Mariano’s cutter?
A: No, and that’s what makes him special. Bruce Sutter was a split-finger fastball. He could tell you it was coming and you couldn’t hit it. My out pitch was my fastball, and my ball exploded at home plate. My ball moved all over. Mariano’s cutter — wow! You can tell ’em it’s coming, and they can’t hit it.
Q: Describe the first time you saw Mariano pitch.
A: It was in Seattle, I believe it was the playoffs, gosh, way back when he was first starting out. He came in to a bases-loaded situation, and got out of that jam without giving up a run. I said, “Man, this guy looks pretty cool under pressure.”
Q: The young Mo?
A: I didn’t say, “Hell, this guy was gonna put everybody to shame.” I just thought he was gonna be a good one.
Q: You weren’t a closer as we know them today.
A: I was a middle-to-long-to-short. … Shoot, I’ve done ’em all. Closer is a coined phrase that started with Dennis Eckersley out in Oakland. Dennis Eckersely had one foot out the door and another on a banana peel. He was almost out of the game. Tony La Russa and Dave Duncan, they said, “Let him close out games, and then we’ll fill in around him and take that load off him with setup guys. That’s where the evolution started of the coined phrase “closer.” Because Dennis at that time could never have taken on that workload as a reliever there.
Q: What if you had strictly been a ninth-inning closer?
A: I’m sure I would be right there with Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera numbers-wise. There are a handful of guys that probably would have been right there … Rollie Fingers … Bruce Sutter … Lee Smith.
Q: Would you have relished an entire career of pitching just the ninth?
A: I’ll tell ya, I felt guilty when Ron David was my setup guy. I said, “Hey, I’ll switch with you.” I felt guilty I had it so easy, pitching one inning basically. Ron Davis was lights out. He pitched more than I did, and the innings were bigger innings and tougher innings. All I did was pitch the ninth inning when the game was over. I saw the total evolution. When I broke in, you didn’t even want to be in the bullpen. Chuck Tanner and Johnny Sain said, “Let’s take Gossage and [Terry] Forster, a right-hander and a left-hander, out to the bullpen,” that was their idea at the time. We didn’t want to be relievers at that time. We had our sights set on being starters. The bullpen was a junkpile. It was the greatest thing to happen to me. I loved coming to the park every day with the opportunity of thinking, “Hey, I’m gonna be in a big game tonight.” I used to come in with inherited runners many times in the seventh inning with nobody out. I loved that workload.
Q: How dominant do you think you would have been if you only pitched the ninth inning?
A: I don’t know if they’d ever have gotten a hit off of me.
Q: What percentage of the time would you say you were a one-inning closer?
A: Maybe 20 percent, I don’t know. Maybe less, maybe more.
Q: Do you think you would have been more intimidating in a one-inning scenario?
A: These guys are so dominant in a one-inning role, they forget what we used to do. We used to do three guys’ jobs, buddy. Starters prided themselves on finishing what they started. It’s not like today, they throw 100 pitches and they’re gone. There are throwbacks today who could pitch in any era. CC [Sabathia], he prides himself on finishing what he starts. The whole aspect of pitching was different back then. When the time came for voting for the Hall of Fame, I said, “Please don’t compare me to Mariano, and please don’t compare Mariano to me. Mariano’s one of the greatest relief pitchers ever. Please don’t compare what we used to do and what he does. It’s not even fair.” I said these guys are so dominant in that one-inning role, and they are. Setup guys today have a harder role than the closer does today. They work more innings, they work tougher innings, they work tougher situations than a closer does.
Q: But they don’t require the mentality of a closer.
A: The only difference is the finality of those three outs. A lot of guys can’t do it. … The role changes. … All the great ones who are in the Hall of Fame, and a lot of great ones who aren’t in the Hall of Fame, could pitch the ninth inning. You’re gonna see more Mariano Riveras, I believe.
Q: Why is that?
A: You’ve already got one guy — Trevor Hoffman. … Had Sparky Lyle been used for one inning, it’s hard telling what kind of career he would have had.
Q: Did you get to know Mariano over the years?
A: Mariano’s one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet in your life, absolutely. I think when I talk about this, people get the wrong idea, that it’s sour grapes. I love Mariano Rivera, and I love what he has done, and I love the way he’s been so great over so many years. What I prided myself on was longevity, doing it year after year is the mark of a great player. And to do it on the greatest stage in the world, Yankee Stadium, wearing pinstripes …
Q: Was your favorite save getting [Carl] Yastrzemski to foul out to [Graig] Nettles in the one-game 1978 playoff vs. the Red Sox in Fenway?
A: Oh, that was the biggest save I’ve ever gotten, yeah.
Q: What were you thinking on the mound?
A: I went to bed thinking I’m gonna be facing Yastrzemski for the final out. It was the calmest I’d been all day, and it was the hardest I threw all day, because I relaxed. I just had a little conversation with myself. I said, “Hey, why are you so nervous? This isn’t life and death. This is what you went to bed last night thinking. What’s the worst thing that can happen? I’ll be going home tomorrow.”
Q: What were your emotions when Nettles caught the ball?
A: Oh just total jubilation. Just a tremendous relief that it was over. As many big games as I’d pitched in, certainly I’d never pitched in anything like that. . .a one-game playoff against Boston, in Fenway? Oh my God. It would be a fantasy script.
Q: Did you see Mr. Steinbrenner in the clubhouse after getting Yastrzemski out?
A: No, but I could visualize what he said: “It’s a good [damn] thing you got that sucker!” Thurman [Munson] was coming in the training room, I was getting some ice on my shoulder and getting a beer. He says, “Where in the world did you get that?” I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “Those last two fastballs to Yastrzemski. … You had another foot on each of those balls more than you had all day!” I said, “I relaxed.” He said, “What the hell took you so long?”
Q: Did you think it was over for Mariano when he wrecked his knee last season?
A: No. As long as the knee wasn’t blown out to the point they couldn’t repair it, I didn’t think so, no. Nobody wants to go out like that. Especially Mariano. … Being the competitor that he is, being as great as he’s been, absolutely not.
Q: Do you think he would have retired after last season if he hadn’t gotten hurt?
A: I don’t know that. I would have hoped not. I’ll say this: I would rather fall flat on my face and exhaust all my efforts than retire a year prematurely. I think you should exhaust all your efforts, because you promised yourself when you got into the game to give it everything you could. If you can retire on top, that’s fine. These guys come back, like Brett Favre, all these guys, they think the game won’t go on without them. The game **** will **** go on without you. And the game **** will **** go on without Mariano and Jeter and the Core 4. The game is going to go on. They had a great run. There comes a time, because baseball is a young man’s game. How many say goodbye to you, they retire and they come back? They think they have something else in the tank.
Q: What did you think when Andy Pettitte came back?
A: I thought he should never have retired.
Q: Are you amazed at Mariano’s longevity?
A: No. … I pitched till I was 42, and I was a power pitcher, and I was throwing 92, 93 tops when the strike got me in ’94. I wanted to continue to pitch.
Q: What would you tell Mariano now?
A: I don’t know what it’s like to say you’re gonna retire. I always pitched like every pitch was gonna be my last. I exhausted all my efforts. That’s why I say to these guys, ‘Don’t retire.’ I’d rather have a bad year and know I can’t do this anymore.
Q: No regrets?
A: No regrets, no. Willie Mays falling down in center field — that’s how Willie knew it was over. Nobody had to tell him — and nobody was gonna tell him, unless it was himself.
Q: What would you tell Yankees fans about life after Mariano?
A: Man, you should be proud that you saw one of the greatest relief pitchers of all time. Until somebody comes along and fills his shoes, those are gonna be some tough shoes to fill. Just chalk it up as, “Man, I got to see him pitch,” you know?